Completed College. Winslow Homer. Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: managing their affairs. And so, in this case, weyou know, I really got ready for it, and I expected it to be, you know, the same price as the last time, and I was prepared for that. And we've obviously done a lot of work on our Pre-Raphaelite exhibition, which was kind of a protractedwe did, basically, a two-year Pre-Raphaelite fiesta, with lots of publications. Not, Were they scientifically designed fakes made to deceive? You know, the really great, truly amazing things that anybody would want in their collection have decoupled from the rest of the market, the rest of the market which was the kind ofall the way from, and I say this disparagingly, decorative works up to sort of upper-middle market works. JUDITH RICHARDS: in an understood way to further this. We made our own paint. JUDITH RICHARDS: So when you moved into that, were therewere there any, again, mentors or sources of inspiration, information about collecting in that field? Clifford's current address is 21 Claremont Prk, Boston, MA 02118-3001. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you find it fulfilling? I went to Thessalonica; I got in a rental car. They would have Saturday gatherings where people would set up folding tables. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Hence, the doorway into paintings. So it really was a question of lobbying to say, "Look, I'll make this better for you over a period of years," than doing it this way. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I liked Boston, I felt that it, CLIFFORD SCHORER: it's a good city. I mean, but I didn't, you know, I wasn't trying to make myself a gadfly in the market, or even a gadfly in the curatorial world. That's respect. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And there was a lecture going on in front of my painting, with a big group of people, and somebody talking about the Counter-Reformation. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you encountered any of those with the works you've acquired? You're very involved in it, and you've developed this expertise in computer programming. You know, when a good picture arrives into that market, it creates a ripple, and it sells well. In Chinese export, the beauty of it, to me, was there were interesting subjects in the paintings. So because I happened to be going to all of these events, I would see the object. That are in, you know, the rarefied collectors' hands. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where does that take place? [00:02:00]. You know, what our task is, I think, at Agnew's is to showand, you know, we sound like a broken record, because every dealer says the same thingbut is to show that you can have that one great Old Master in your kitchen, you know, in your dining area, you know, the food still life. JUDITH RICHARDS: So the only alternativeif the person can be convincedis if you just offer them cash to buy it, and then you have a part of your inventory. You know, there are sort of monographic shows of sort of the unsung heroes of art history that I'm very excited, you knowwhen Maryan Ainsworth did the [Jan] Gossart show at the Met, you know, those kinds ofthe Pieter Coecke van Aelst tapestry show with a few paintingsthose kinds of shows are always extraordinary for me, you know, the things that not everybody is going to go see, but that, you know, obviously, it tells a story about an unsung name who may have been either the teacher of someone who went on to achieve, you know, sort of, international fame, or the originator of ideas that became part of our [00:24:14]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I've always had a warehouse. And my mother was. Clifford passed away on month day 1984, at age 67 at death place, North Carolina. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you see yourself or the gallery having a role as a mentor towell, yourself as a mentor to younger collectors and the gallery for its own interests to expandto grow a new generation of clients? So, you know, you have theseyou have those happy happenstances. But I bought it for the frame. You know, milk cartons filled with books. So they were the cleanest book of business I've ever seen relative to the Holocaust. You know? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you collect books ever? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? So, around that time, I had met a few dealers in the Old Master world, and I did start to either back or buy with the intention of selling, which I hadn't done before. I remember reading his book, just because it was there. It didn't say exactly, but it was a level. And you have to do that, I think, because, again, this is a small market with limited opportunities, and you have to work very hard at the ones you have. And, you know, if I think about that in relative terms, you know, the Medici Cycle by Rubens is not as large as that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: One hopes. This isto me, this is one of the great paintings of Procaccini. So, it's the, CLIFFORD SCHORER: it's the hunt, the pursuit, the discovery, the investigation, the scholarship, the writing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, so. Has that been changing? So, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, oftenin that case, I would have to call up an Italian curator. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, boy, that's a tough one. So back then, you know, we were in. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, there's stronger German roots on my father's side. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, they do publish, especially catalogues for exhibition and shows and things like that, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you donated the piece, or you donated the funds for them to purchase the piece? It's fascinating to me to see the roots of sea travel that were established by that point to move these goods around at incredibly low cost. He says, "No, I didn't." And I would go to those. Steel Herman Miller partitions from the early '80s were still there. So, yes, something like that that comesan opportunity like that would derail any project for a period, but then we'd come back to our projects, you know. I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. Like the bestyou know, the very important people in the orbit of the greatest, and very, very good quality; I mean the best quality that there is. In every house, there are 15 of them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My ownI always maintained paper files, and I'm a computer guy, but I maintain paper files because I've changed technology platforms so many times over the last 25 years that you have to be conscious of that. [Laughs. There was another local museum that was in trouble, the Higgins Armory Museum, and they had the second-best arms and armor collection in America, and also an unsung hero. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was a willful and independent child. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there anything else you want to talk about in terms of future aspirations? And he said, "Do you know what you bought?" He just built, I think, the first public museum in Antwerp. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was very dingy and dark, but it still was a masterpiece. Fellow collectors in the field? Beyond. A Massachussetts man filed suit against Sotheby's on Monday, saying he's the rightful owner. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Hands on. And they're outside smoking cigarettes, and they're not talking about art. CLIFFORD SCHORER: commentarywe had a Reynolds and a Kehinde Wiley together, and we showed that, you know, basically, this portraitureyou know, the portraiture is not only of its time, but it also can be timeless. I mean, was there a kind of sense that you have when you look back that there was a certain period of time when you were doing a lot of research and reading? JUDITH RICHARDS: You have Pre-Raphaelite paintings? JUDITH RICHARDS: So, that's the period of time, JUDITH RICHARDS: you were really developing. And then I would say when I was aroundand this tied well into the art world. It took forever to renovate because I did it all myself, nights and weekends. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So when I bought my examplethe triceratopsthere was an editorial in the New York Times about my piece, saying that some rich person's going to hide it away in their castle. I'm thinking of that period before, then I'm going to talk about the panel at the Frick, 2013. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, there I was, really making capital available to gallerists whom I trusted and to buy pictures that I liked, so it was a veryI was not their first call. My grandfather was also lobbying hard, saying, "Go back to school." I brought an entire chair, a French chair, into the passenger cabin. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's been a very long-term loan. [00:18:00]. [00:38:00]. There were interesting stories in those paintings. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that a whole collection or just two? It was a very beautiful, 18th-century French frame on this Italian, Neapolitan, somewhat good 17th-century painting. How do you deal with that? And, frankly, after the story is lostand the story is what sells the picture, and then the picture is burned at auction; then it's worth half of what it was before you did that. And so, those are wonderful. We just have a little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time? And I got out of school and I moved down to Virginia, where I got a job in computer programming. I mean, sure. But my desire to live in the middle of nowherethis was in Meriden, New Hampshire, which was literally the middle of nowherewith 400 other. I mean, I pointed it out, and he bought it for the museum, and now it's, you knowit's an extremely interesting thing about how these ideas disseminate. I guessI guess I felt a bit insecure about the fact that I needed their help to learn something. But, I mean, those areof course, I'd lend for any lecture series that made sense, you know. [00:34:00]. That'sI thinkwe're there now at the end of our, whatever, 10-year plan. But the scholarship at the time said, "Wait a minute, that looks like a preparatory drawing for that painting," which then changed the attribution of the painting to a better attribution. And you know, so we spent, I don't know, 350 hours talking, I mean. And they're like, "Come on, please," you know, "it's important people know that, you know, the board is giving." I love that. So there wasn't any collecting going on at that point. I had never even heard of the Worcester Art Museum. Just to pick up a little bit from where we left off yesterday, this is still before Agnew's enters the picturein the earlyinaroundso you're collecting Italian Baroque, as you described it yesterday. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You're putting a value judgment on it that I, you know, I'm uncomfortable making entirely myself. So, yes, to me, that was the detour, but it waswhich was pure craft, but I esteem the craft as much as the conception, and I know that I'll never have the craft. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Furnishings; hotels; office buildings full of furniture; artwork from lobbies; clocks from old buildings in Boston; you know, architectural elements that I salvage every time I do renovations on a building. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] So I went to Spain, and I tried to buy both of the remaining paintings. I think that's fantastic. It's a private, JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there any indication that it's from you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, it says "Private. But I think that I'm not willing to roll that roulette wheel. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you do all the paperwork yourself? You're going into someone else's space to show an artwork. florida sea level rise map 2030 8; lee hendrie footballer wife 1; American artist Winslow Homer (1836-1910) the self-taught master best known today for his scenes of nature and the sea got his start as one of the "special artists" of the Civil War. Well, I think Agnew's has to stay small, and I think that that's challenging, because Agnew's hadhas always had big ambitions. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Or did you have friends who also had these interests? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I mean, I love lending things, and I have a lot of things on loan, and I would like to do more of that. Massachusetts native Clifford Schorer said the painting was used as security for a loan he made to Selina Varney (now Rendall) and that he was now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, selling a 50,000 work when you have 800,000 in overheadif you're on a commission basis, you have to sell a lot of 50,000 works. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You can't lend to a private gallery. And thatyou know, in those cases, I think only if it rises to the level of a conflict of interest that violates the oath. I mean, I found a conflict the other night at the collections committee advisory meeting at Worcester. So it. I mean, paleontology, you have to understand, is the rarity of those objects, compared to the paintings we're talking about. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: At what pointat what point did you think about putting aside, possibly in storage, or selling that first Chinese porcelain collection? CLIFFORD SCHORER: They would be artists that might be in storage and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I mean they would be on the walls in some collections, and they might not be considered by art historians to be sort of the key figure of the movement, you know. They've always been that way. And it was alsoit was an attractive city to me because of the 19th-century architecture. And now the painting hangs at the Worcester Art Museum so it can be seen, and basically, you know, after all of that gunk was stripped off, the painting that emerged is extraordinary, so we're very excited. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you read art magazines? Because I know I started my business in 1983, in March, and that wasI was 17 then. I said, "I'm just a local guy, and I just came by to see this collection. I don't know where that came from, but it was an instinctive sense. And, you know, for example, Anthony decided he wanted to do a Lotte Laserstein show. Funding for this interview was provided by Barbara Fleischman. I would. I mean, you know, that's. And so, you know, I bought a territory with a partner, and we have a territory, and basically, you know, we go to an annual meeting, and we have a dinner with the managers, and that's ourso, in a sense, I was able to sort of extract myself from project-based businesses to at least have this background income that would support a very marginal lifestyle, which is what I live. I can point out that prices at auction are still 40 percent below the price that a well-executed private sale treaty could be done at, if the buyer and the seller are fully informed and have all the information, understand the importance or lack of importance of the work, you know, the things that an auction doesn't allow for. CLIFFORD SCHORER: intrinsically knowing the difference between an early 20th-century and a late 18th-century. And Anna especially, too, on the aesthetic, of creating a new aesthetic that people do not any longer associate with the old aesthetic. And Ashland is an even deeper sort of geo-politic. There was a logic for the family dissolving the enterprise which was hard to overcome with the attraction of a sale. So I went to the booth, and I talked to them about the Procaccini, and they didn't know who I was, and I basically wanted to keep it that way. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I went to a boarding school, and then I went to live with my grandparents, who had moved by that point to Virginia. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But, you know, I guess with minor things, you know, with less important artwork, it is what it is. CLIFFORD SCHORER: coming from, you know, New York and the Vineyard, and you know, sort of an active life. Clifford Schorer says he loaned Rendall an unspecified amount of money in 2012, and she backed the. I sold it all. Prep the spring onion by cutting the white part, the middle part and the green part and keep them separately. But I went away, you know, tail between my legs, because it was absolutely unattainable for me. I love to run around and look for paintings for them. And, you know, a picture that always has its place in art history, always has its story, and more than that, it's a segue into the story of the person in the painting, the sitter of the painting. JUDITH RICHARDS: So as you got to 2000, 2001, how did your interestyou said you became involved with the Worcester Museum. So you've got another decoupling. But the languages that I really learned and loved were French and the Slavic languages. It's a big Spanish altarpiece. She's always willing to take a phone call from an annoying person like me. the answer is definitively, "No." CLIFFORD SCHORER: And it was justI thought the frame was incredible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's nice to be, you know, continental Europe for the TEFAF Maastricht and then New York for TEFAF New York. I want to talk to them. He's not a regular "player" in the region, but what Cliff Schorer has accomplished as board president at the Worcester Art Museum over the last two years has helped revive attendance . [00:48:00]. The circle was so small that you were sitting at a table with everybody that could be interested in that same object, at the same table, and you could actually talk to all of them. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Because you were continually not only expanding the view, but you were also refining and improving the quality of each example? And then if I found older ones, I'd be very excited. That book should be out very soon, actually. You know, it was a million square feet of office furniture and miscellaneous things. JUDITH RICHARDS: But it sounds like it proved to be a good choice. But it wasI've covered the allegories I'm interested in. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. And, you know, from there I was able to turn more of my attention. [00:50:05]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, most of that's quite simple. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, when I got involved. Have youyou mentioned thea committee at the MFA in Boston. JUDITH RICHARDS: people educating you in some way about the field? 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